[Stone]

Ive found some tiny particles in my vials.

There also seems to be a sort of bubbly white sedement of some sort in them.

Return them right?

[alex.p]

Very good post Bertie, thank you for it - informative and honest

Regardless of the equipment and setup used by UG labs I've always been worried that although labs may produce some batches or runs which are fine, if their procedures aren't medical lab grade or maintained then large quantities of gear will flow out round the country to the community that the labs know aren't up to scratch but they cross their fingers and hope nobody has visible stuff in their vials. They are after all out to make money....

Issues like this are what might give authorities more wood to stoke the fire against use, but then again (ie. if you look at Holland) it puts forward an argument for legalisation so pharma stuff floods the market and forces UG labs to get up to scratch (although this could push them down to cut costs which is worse).

Either way should always be careful, take no chances - I talk to some guys who've had problems like this and say to me they just make sure they don't suck it into the needle, makes me shake my head, never take a chance when putting something into your body

I'm by no means a heavy user, nor do I have a decade under my belt of use...But I'm sure many will concurr safety and common sense should come first, and those labs with good names and higher prices may well be worth shelling out for if reliable pharma's not readily available

This post has been edited by alex.p: 03 July 2009 - 12:49 PM

[Incredible Bulk]

i have just taken delivery of WC NPP/PROP and its as clear as mineral water, no sediment or other stuff in it.

[Stone]

Mods:-

please can you lock this thread.

I too am no heavy user nor a person who is in the know or someone who influences the approval or dissapproval of labs.

I think this thread is going off topic and is swaying towards discussing sterility of UG gear as opposed to questioning the gear I have received.

My source has offered replacements but now have decided not to use WC for the moment. Hes really cool about it and will return to him in the future without a doubt.

This is by no means a bash on WC, Ive just used their sust and primo, perfectly happy with it but personally, Im feeling un easy regarding this as its not only me who found bits in vials.

Thank you all for your advice, help and contribution to this thread.

Again, Im on no labs team, I do not endorse or slate anyones lab, all I want to do is use safe gear, thats it for me!

[cyborg]

its good to have someone as dedicated as bertie. i am sure we all appreciate what you are doing (even if i didnt know about it)to make our community safer

[Pip]

If ppl are stupid enough not to realise the pitfalls then let them carry on. Less morons around.

[WQB]

Edit by bertie

I suggest you stay off this forum. I fairly moderted other posts with complaints about your lab. We have always been professional. I suggest you don't make it personal. I have had lots of complaints about you which I've kept from the public as they were un verifiable. The boards policy is fair and will remain so, although in the interests of you and your staff I suggest you use a different forum to use

[Slight of hand]

Bertie

Thanks for your post.....

Consider the journey. One day you look at yourself in the mirror, you reflect not at the image you see but what you think everyone else perceives. You join a gym because youre unhappy with what you are. You tell everyone when you join you just want to trim a little, maybe put on a little muscle but nothing really serious like all the huge guys that may surround you. After a while you glance at the the other guys and keep glancing...noticing the size, definition, strength on display....it plays on your mind.....you want some of that but your not too sure how to get it because the instructors/or lack of, have never really explained things properly to you. Somehow you enter into a discussion about steroids through chance - or you engineer it. You look at the big fker...have a chat about gear with him...... and what he says must be gospel because he's huge. You know nothing of biology/chemistyy...drug pharmacokinetics or dynamics and cant really understand the complexitites of it all - even though youve googled "dbol" "test enanthate" "anavar" "tren" a hundred times...it doesn't sink in because its all big words. Feck it i'll do what big fker at the gym says and take 50mg dbol he supplied me for £40 every day for 10 weeks because lets face it....the side are overated big time according to big fker and everyone in the gym that is lining his pockets will concur. i'll go on some forums where some unqualified novices will tell me to up the dose or start injecting (and stop being such a shitebag)because they want to affirm their own use of the drug and belittle my own concerns.

There is so much shite behind the scenes in this fking murky world that i am so glad people like you exist......keep up the fight mate.

[Stone]

I didnt get a pic as the bits were too small or that the pic didnt show it clearly.

Deffo little black bits, Ive returned them to my source so if my source returns them to the lab, theyll be able to see, as title of this thread, it was in nandro test.

I wouldnt have made up hassle for absolutely no reason, why would I?

Tell the lab owner I know what I saw, otherwise some of the nandro would be in my glute right now!

This post has been edited by Stone: 05 July 2009 - 01:04 PM

[mick_the_brick]

Stone - I know you very well and know you would not make this up.

Don't take it personally pal.

Hopefully you get sorted from your source.

[Stone]

Guys, thanks but didnt mean to come across disheartened.

Mick - Source has sorted me out big time, best Ive had tbh (AGAIN, PLEASE DO NOT EMAIL ME FOR DETAILS (DIRECTED AT NOOBS)).

Bertie - thank you for the effort by chasing this with all gnashers. Its really cool youre doing this, not only from anecdotal view but one of moral knowing that youre helping the community use safely.

Its much appreciated.

[Big D]

Clubber Lang, on 03 July 2009 - 12:13 PM, said:

their rep hasnt changed in my eyes. Sill hold them highly.

jesus whats it going to take then!?

their reputation is shot to shit at the moment, i hope they get it sorted for the safety of people stupid enough to blindly stick to them no matter what.

[alex.p]

Big D, on 06 July 2009 - 09:50 PM, said:

jesus whats it going to take then!?

their reputation is shot to shit at the moment, i hope they get it sorted for the safety of people stupid enough to blindly stick to them no matter what.

It does seem to be taking some stick at the moment, but given the vast number of batches/runs that have come out down the years that have had no problem we don't know why all of a sudden a few duff ones have come out. I think I'm trying to put across we should take some of the bashing with a pinch of salt and as long as we're getting from trusted sources they'll sort us out if we notice have received something from a bad batch.

On a side note if anyone pics up a copy of MD this month there's an article from William Llwelyn(?) who does the Anabolics books to do with bacteria testing of UG labs - interesting reading and all results obtained will come out in a few months.

[alex.p]

Not taken personally in any way at all bertie - post was written just as I woke up so didn't get point across how wanted to and certainly am not as clued up on the production procedures as you or others around. This is something that affects us all and should be studied by us to protect one another

I certainly don't find any bad production lines or products as 'acceptable' in any way at all, we're handing over cash for things that in all honesty could kill us. Alot of labs go through spades of bashing based on their past rather than the quality they currently put out having potentially corrected any issues (that shouldn't have been their in the first place) by people affiliated with other labs or trolls.

I admit am not clued up on this as well as others as have already said and I greatly appreciate you taking time to put so much detail into these posts - in many ways it shows the polar nature of these labs, quality production procedures = safe, not = not and very little middle ground.

Didn't mean to assume anything, have had many lads down where I train though running products from labs that were put up a good couple of yrs back or further that I know aren't right just by looking at them and the reactions to jabs. Similarly I see some using current stuff and having less issues than pharma available. Word of mouth and ignorance when spouting off is a dangerous thing but all too common and scarily people use old stuff based on current reviews and visa versa..

Apologies again bertie for putting forward views that may/not be correct didn't mean to mislead, have just recently seen alot of lab bashing on other boards/gyms to do with products from many years gone by as opposed to what's been put out in the last year.


This may be quite a forward question and if inappropriate please edit but I've always avoided using UG when I can out of the horror stories you sometimes hear, but have still used to great effect at times. But just how do we know (especially given alot of harmful material can't be seen) what can be used with confidence and what can't given that seemingly things can go from a.ok to what Stone has found, with any of the labs around?

This post has been edited by alex.p: 07 July 2009 - 11:31 AM

[alex.p]

Not a problem at all bertie, again thank you for all the work being done behind the scenes and posts here...

I think the thing to take from it all for me at least is to just keep as read up on everything as possible, is part and parcel of the necessity of having to use UG labs

[Ares]

i think its this one. which you probably will have seen already mate.

http://www.musculard...nt/view/1522/57

--------------------------------


Anabolic Research Update:
By William Llewellyn

Counterfeit Analysis Report

The Results
Included in this article are the results of the study separated by drug type. I felt upon review that it allowed a somewhat interesting view of the “relative confidence” one could have for a particular type of steroid or drug, at least according to the numbers in this small report. It is important to emphasize that while a fairly large sample for this type of analysis, 70 drug products taken from three dealers is not sufficient to prove any specific market trend, overall counterfeit prevalence or brand legitimacy. Still, as we find in the results, counterfeiting is still very much alive and well and is an issue Germans have to deal with just as do Americans.

Anadrol (oxymetholone):

1. Oxytone 50mg (SB Labs, Thailand) Result: PASS
2. Oxytone 50mg (SB Labs, Thailand) Result: PASS
3. Oxytone 50mg (SB Labs, Thailand) Result: PASS

Deca (nandrolone decanoate):

1. Norma Hellas (100mg/mL) Result: FAIL (testosterone)
2. Norma Hellas (100mg/mL) Result: FAIL (testosterone)
3. Norma Hellas (100mg/mL) Result: FAIL (testosterone)
4. Norma Hellas (100mg/mL) Result: FAIL (testosterone)
5. Decabol 250 (British Dragon, Underground) Result: FAIL (testosterone)

Dianabol (methandrostenolone):

1. Anabol 5mg (British Dispensary, Thailand) Result: FAIL (methyltestosterone)
2. Anabol 5mg (British Dispensary, Thailand) Result: PASS
3. Anabol 5mg (British Dispensary, Thailand) Result: PASS
4. Danabol DS 10mg (March, Thailand) Result: PASS
5. Danabol DS 10mg (March, Thailand) Result: PASS
6. Naposim 5mg (Terapia, Romania) Result: FAIL (methyltestosterone)

Equipoise (boldenone undecylenate):

1. Boldabol 200 (British Dragon, Underground) Result: PASS

Halotestin (fluoxymesterone):

1. Fluoxymesterone (IP, Underground) Result: PASS

Primobolan (methenolone enanthate):

1. Primobol 100 (British Dragon, Underground) Result: FAIL (nandrolone, testosterone)

Proviron (mesterolone):

1. Proviron 25mg Result: PASS

Sustanon 250 (testosterone mix):

1. Sustanon 250 (Karachi, Pakistan) Result: PASS
2. Sustanon 250 (Nile, Egypt) Result: FAIL (different testosterones)
3. Sustanon 250 (Nile, Egypt) Result: FAIL (different testosterones)
4. Sustanon 250 (Karachi, Pakistan) Result: PASS
5. Sustanon 250 (Karachi, Pakistan) Result: PASS
6. Sustanon 250 (Karachi, Pakistan) Result: PASS
7. Sustanon 250 (Karachi, Pakistan) Result: PASS
8. Sustanon 250 (Karachi, Pakistan) Result: PASS
9. Sustanon 250 (Karachi, Pakistan) Result: PASS

Testosterone Cypionate:

1. Testex Prolongatum 125 (Q Pharma, Spain) Result: PASS
2. Testabol 200 (British Dragon, Underground) Result: FAIL (different testosterones)

Testosterone Enanthate:

1. Testofort 250mg/mL (Pliva, Pakistan) Result: PASS
2. Testosterone Depot 250 (Eifelfango, Germany) Result: PASS
3. Testosterone Depot 250 (Eifelfango, Germany) Result: PASS
4. Testoviron Depot 250 (Medipharm, Pakistan) Result: PASS
5. Testoviron Depot 250 (Medipharm, Pakistan) Result: PASS
6. Cidoteston 250 (CID, Egypt) Result: FAIL (includes T. cypionate)
7. Cidoteston 250 (CID, Egypt) Result: PASS

Testosterone Propionate:

1. Testovis 100mg/mL (SIT, Italy) Result: PASS
2. Testovis 100mg/mL (SIT, Italy) Result: PASS
3. Testovis 100mg/mL (SIT, Italy) Result: PASS
4. Testovis 100mg/mL (SIT, Italy) Result: PASS
5. Testovis 100mg/mL (SIT, Italy) Result: PASS
6. Testabol (British Dragon, Underground) Result: FAIL (different testosterones)

Trenbolone (various esters):

1. Trenabol 75 (British Dragon, Underground) Result: FAIL (boldenone, testosterone)
2. Trenabol 100 (British Dragon, Underground) Result: FAIL (boldenone, testosterone)
3. Tri-Trenabol 150 (British Dragon, Underground) Result: FAIL (trenbolone, testosterone)
4. Trenabol 200 (British Dragon, Underground) Result: FAIL (trenbolone, testosterone)

Winstrol (stanozolol):

1. Winstrol Depot 50mg/mL (Zambon, Spain) Result: PASS
2. Winstrol Depot 50mg/mL (Zambon, Spain) Result: PASS
3. Winstrol Depot 50mg/mL (Zambon, Spain) Result: PASS
4. Stanabol 50 (British Dragon, Underground) Result: PASS

Visual Inspection
The researchers noted that aside from known underground products from labs such as British Dragon and International Pharmaceuticals, it was not possible for them to ascertain what product was real and what was a counterfeit upon visual inspection. While this group may not have the experience or reference materials necessary to make an up-close product examination and no product photos were provided in the report to reference, it does underline a problem that we have been noticing for a long time. Namely, that counterfeit manufacturing operations are becoming increasingly sophisticated. Now more than ever, it can be extremely difficult for someone shopping on the black market to determine product legitimacy before making a purchase and actually consuming the product(s).

Underground Steroid Products
Of the 10 samples of British Dragon (BD) products taken from one dealer, only two were shown to contain the labeled ingredients upon analysis. None of the samples, however, were shown to be devoid of steroid ingredients. Instead, there appeared to be a trend of substituting expensive ingredients for less costly ones. For example, all of the trenbolone products failed the testing, usually because they contained a base of testosterone instead of trenbolone. Since these all originated from one dealer and BD has been the subject of much recent counterfeiting and internal instability, it is impossible to determine if these had originated from the actual manufacturer. IP (international Pharmaceuticals) is the only other company identified as an underground operation during this testing and only their fluoxymesterone steroid was analyzed. It contained the properly labeled ingredient.

The “Best” Products
In general, of the confiscated German products, those that were manufactured in Western Europe seemed to offer greater assurance of legitimacy than those of other regions. This is in great contract to the United States, where local region products (U.S. and Canada) are those most likely to be the subject of counterfeiting. Also, the less costly testosterone products were the most likely to be legitimate overall, even if they originated outside of Europe. It appears that at least by way of these three dealers, a good deal of legitimate Karachi Sustanon and Egyptian Testosterone enanthate is being imported. It is of note that the one failure of CID enanthate was due to the inclusion of some testosterone cypionate in addition to the labeled enanthate. It is unknown if this is an error that occurred at the manufacturing plant, or the product was the subject of counterfeiting. Thailand also remains a common source country for legitimate products not commonly manufactured in Western Europe, including oxymetholone and methandrostenolone.


The “Worst” Products
Perhaps due to high recognition and demand, all of the Normal Hellas tested during this analysis run was determined to be counterfeit. Note that Norma Hellas Deca products were confiscated and analyzed from all three dealers, not one single source. In all cases, these products contained testosterone, likely in lower than the stated amount of nandrolone. This can provide a similar level of mild effect for some users in the hopes it will not be identified as such. It is also less expensive to manufacture in comparison to nandrolone decanoate. Norma Hellas Deca, likewise, remains a product of extremely high risk on the European and international markets.

Other Bodybuilding “Ancillary” Drugs
A total of 20 non-steroid drugs were also tested. All products that would be defined as common ancillary drugs including tamoxifen citrate (Nolvadex), clomiphene citrate (Clomid), thyroid hormone, caffeine and yohimbine hcl turned out to be legitimate. This underlines the lower risk in these items, no doubt due to the lower financial incentive for counterfeiters to duplicate these cheap and easy to access pharmaceuticals. The only non-steroid drugs where there was some substitution noted were in the male sexual performance category, where drugs such as Viagra and Cialis dominate. In most cases, these drugs did test out as labeled and when they failed, it was for the substitution of active ingredients of the same drug family.
Overall, nearly 40 percent of the anabolic steroids tested turn out to be counterfeits. This is pretty much in line with what would have been expected. Certainly counterfeit drugs do not have total control of the illicit market and as we can see, many legitimate drugs are still distributed in large volume. At the same time, however, counterfeits made up a very substantial (approaching half) percentage of what was being circulated by these three dealers. This is likely a good reflection of what is happening on the general European market. Of course, this also is a reflection of the global counterfeiting problem, which is showing no signs of waning. If nothing else, I hope this article serves to underline the care that should be taken when shopping for these drugs on the black market. It is a big dice role these days, especially if you do not take care to really learn what you should (and should not) be shopping for. Be safe!