40 replies to this topic

[mick_the_brick]

As per the title - looking for user's experience of the above type of slin.

[dean c]

As per the title - looking for user's experience of the above type of slin.

levimir is another long acting slin mate ,probably just which ever you can source .
lantus can cause vision problems in some users ,i have been fine but some arent .levimir doesnt seem to have that side

[Slight of hand]

long acting basal insulin, personally i couldn't see the application for it's use in BBD'g. It also not 24 hours or peakless as the literature they provide would have you believe - also you need the shuttle bus - not the slow train for glyc absorption to the muscles. Basal, Unlike fast acting such as Aspart, lispro or more recently Glulisine it would be difficult to monitor and it's benefit to glycaemia over a 20-24 hour period in non-diabetics. Fast acting endo/exo absorption alledges to to have some effect for BBd's but imo that is also debatable and difficult to measure.

Maybe someone else thinks differently..

[dean c]

long acting basal insulin, personally i couldn't see the application for it's use in BBD'g. It also not 24 hours or peakless as the literature they provide would have you believe - also you need the shuttle bus - not the slow train for glyc absorption to the muscles. Basal, Unlike fast acting such as Aspart, lispro or more recently Glulisine it would be difficult to monitor and it's benefit to glycaemia over a 20-24 hour period in non-diabetics. Fast acting endo/exo absorption alledges to to have some effect for BBd's but imo that is also debatable and difficult to measure.

Maybe someone else thinks differently..

ive used fast acting for quite a while now and recently started long acting ,all i can say is that the gains i am getting are far more notable than when i used fast acting ,i feel fuller and pumped even on non training days.
it could be coinsidence but its really the only thing that ive added that explain better results .
basal/bolus would give the best of both worlds but right now i am enjoying not having to be so rigid with shots and post meal timings .
i just shoot when i wake and eat as normal.

i am certainly no expert though and am not dissagreeing with the above but i do feel its working well

[mick_the_brick]

I'll continue researching this then.

Thanks for your input guys.

Some very interesting reading on this over on UKiron BTW :)

[dean c]

I'll continue researching this then.

Thanks for your input guys.

Some very interesting reading on this over on UKiron BTW :)

yep ,the thread over there pretty much covers everything

[StephenC]

ive used fast acting for quite a while now and recently started long acting ,all i can say is that the gains i am getting are far more notable than when i used fast acting ,i feel fuller and pumped even on non training days.
it could be coinsidence but its really the only thing that ive added that explain better results .
basal/bolus would give the best of both worlds but right now i am enjoying not having to be so rigid with shots and post meal timings .
i just shoot when i wake and eat as normal.

i am certainly no expert though and am not dissagreeing with the above but i do feel its working well

Exactly the same dean, i feel much better using long acting in comparison to fast, also maintaining my on cycle bw by using just lantus, igf & peg mgf and getting leaner too.

Hard to attribute how much of the gains are down to lantus but both on and off cycle I do feel bigger and fuller and have a noticeable appetite increase.

Mick get a good read over Max's stuff on this on UKI, there's also another thread on RXM i believe.

[dean c]

Exactly the same dean, i feel much better using long acting in comparison to fast, also maintaining my on cycle bw by using just lantus, igf & peg mgf and getting leaner too.

Hard to attribute how much of the gains are down to lantus but both on and off cycle I do feel bigger and fuller and have a noticeable appetite increase.

Mick get a good read over Max's stuff on this on UKI, there's also another thread on RXM i believe.

im yet to notice an increase in appetite ,i am 25ius right now .the only thing stopping me upping the dose at the moment is cost as 300ius doesnt last long .
what dose are you using mate ?have you used levimir ?

[StephenC]

im yet to notice an increase in appetite ,i am 25ius right now .the only thing stopping me upping the dose at the moment is cost as 300ius doesnt last long .
what dose are you using mate ?have you used levimir ?

Never tried levemir, i was looking for it but then read about lantus' additional binding properties with igf etc and the first stuff i got my hands on was lantus.

I'm running 30iu a day just although i have tapered up to this over an extended period of time, I'm with you tho i'd push it higher if it wasnt for the cost/availability issues.

How much carbs u eating a day with it, are you running bolus as well?

[Slight of hand]

Never tried levemir, i was looking for it but then read about lantus' additional binding properties with igf etc and the first stuff i got my hands on was lantus.

I'm running 30iu a day just although i have tapered up to this over an extended period of time, I'm with you tho i'd push it higher if it wasnt for the cost/availability issues.

How much carbs u eating a day with it, are you running bolus as well?

Levemir may actually be the better insulin to use in this application. It is more predictable than Lantus, the blood glucose ranges can vary from day to day more widely with Lantus than Levemir. One clamp study showed the difference may be up to 48% and 26% respectively - possibly giving you piece of mind that you wont fluctuate to far up (hyper) or down (hypo) when on basal only. Sudies also show that severe hypoglycaemis is significantly reduced when patients move on to Levemir from either Isophane or Gargine - worth noting that studies show that Levemir is weight neutral or in many cases effective at metabolising fat rather than causing wieght gain (PREDICTIVE study sub group analysis of type 2)this could perhaps make it an ideal cutting drug - it is also licenced in the UK for once or twice daily use - Lantus is not, making it more flexible.

I Would be interested to hear is someone has tried Levemir in a cut......personally i think it would be an awesome drug for that purpose.
You also do not need to use big doses of the drug...you still have endogenous insulin and you have no way of knowing how the Beta cells are responding to glucose loads or how much hepatic gluconeogenesis is taking place.......be careful you might really fcuk up the endo system if you do it half arsed....unlike test production this really does matter in the longer term.

[dean c]

Levemir may actually be the better insulin to use in this application. It is more predictable than Lantus, the blood glucose ranges can vary from day to day more widely with Lantus than Levemir. One clamp study showed the difference may be up to 48% and 26% respectively - possibly giving you piece of mind that you wont fluctuate to far up (hyper) or down (hypo) when on basal only. Sudies also show that severe hypoglycaemis is significantly reduced when patients move on to Levemir from either Isophane or Gargine - worth noting that studies show that Levemir is weight neutral or in many cases effective at metabolising fat rather than causing wieght gain (PREDICTIVE study sub group analysis of type 2)this could perhaps make it an ideal cutting drug - it is also licenced in the UK for once or twice daily use - Lantus is not, making it more flexible.

I Would be interested to hear is someone has tried Levemir in a cut......personally i think it would be an awesome drug for that purpose.
You also do not need to use big doses of the drug...you still have endogenous insulin and you have no way of knowing how the Beta cells are responding to glucose loads or how much hepatic gluconeogenesis is taking place.......be careful you might really fcuk up the endo system if you do it half arsed....unlike test production this really does matter in the longer term.

some interesting points there mate .
take a look on the thread on uk-iron that maxititer has started .

i am looking at running it for 8-12weeks at a time before taking a break .
stephen - i am only using the long acting at the moment ,i would consider adding a pwo shot of humalog but at the moment i prefer the long acting alone .
carbs are around 450grams at the moment
ive recently lowered my food intake a bit probably by about 800-1000 calories as im not sure i really needed as much as i was eating ,although i seem to have plateud so might be time to up it again

[All4n]

I remember reading a post by Maxititer about how levemir has shown to cause less fat gain, he didn't explain why, been meaning to ask. However, i'd hazard a guess (especially as as the study was predicitive) that the reduced weight gains was down to the fact that if blood glucose levels are more stable then people are less likely to overeat. Periods of going hypo, even if minor will lead to hunger which will lead to the patients overeating.

Insulin "metabolising fat" does not sound correct to me, insulin is a storage hormone. It is anabolic/anti-catabolic towards muscle and fat. It prevents lipyotic action, thus any reduced weight gain will be down to the indirect effect of reduced hunger due to stable insulin levels. Not the direct action of the insulin. I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but i am quite sure levemir insulin will not directly cause weight loss, it is simply an indirect effect of less food consumption as per stable blood levels.

[Slight of hand]

I remember reading a post by Maxititer about how levemir has shown to cause less fat gain, he didn't explain why, been meaning to ask. However, i'd hazard a guess (especially as as the study was predicitive) that the reduced weight gains was down to the fact that if blood glucose levels are more stable then people are less likely to overeat. Periods of going hypo, even if minor will lead to hunger which will lead to the patients overeating.

Insulin "metabolising fat" does not sound correct to me, insulin is a storage hormone. It is anabolic/anti-catabolic towards muscle and fat. It prevents lipyotic action, thus any reduced weight gain will be down to the indirect effect of reduced hunger due to stable insulin levels. Not the direct action of the insulin. I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but i am quite sure levemir insulin will not directly cause weight loss, it is simply an indirect effect of less food consumption as per stable blood levels.

Thats what i meant mate - i typed in a hurry i should have elaborated further, i meant to elude to other metabolic effects. I was also at a presentation where Prof Russel Jones hypothesised the effect on Satiety with levemir, which is enahnced. In PREDICTIVE the higher that BMI the further likelyhood of fat loss on insulin Detemir (levemir) and its remained weight neutral in other groups, which as you probably know is unusual for an insulin. Also the less hypo the less chance of snacking i suppose....

I'll dig up some of my old studies and post again, but imo Levemir would make more sense to a bodybuilder than Lantus.

[All4n]

I'm not so sure i'd agree. Lantus activates IGF recepetors many times over the amount when compared with levemir, thus lantus = more muscle growth. Fat gain can be controlled via diet and other peptides such as GH/GH Frags. The studies are done on normal average people right? Not bodybuilders paying attention to diet/nutrient intake for maximally improved body composition.

If the argument is...

Levemir = less fat gain in user
vs
Lantus = more muscle gain in user

...then from a BBers perspective, i do not agree that levemir will be better suited. Simply because fat gain can be controlled via other methods.

Also do the studies simply show weight loss/gain figures? How about body composition changes? As that is what is important.

[jef]

all4n this is the reason im really sceptical of any studies on aas, igf, slin ect.

as we know its unethical for studies to be carried out at bodybuuilding doses,

i take all results with a pinch of salt - and certainley do not take any as gospel

as ive found many many times studies very rarley reflect real life and all its varieties/complexities.

im not saying they are not useful and can advance understadings - its just too ofeten they seem to be taken as gospel.


ive used both novo rapid, apidra, and long acting slin lantus

for me lantus is easier to use, caused less sides effects, specifically the extreme lethargy, and cut down on the silly amounts of simple carbs required pwo - which im sure contributed to the lethargy.


im will continue to use lantus, cycled.

it gives me crazy pumps, and fullness.


as a side note anyone ever know anyone that has become diabetic through bb insulin use/abuse?